This was wonderful! I really appreciated the focus on the Commons, which is something I’m a big fan of and forever indebted to the work of Michel Bauwens regarding, and I love the association of it with the Sacred. That was excellent on the Sabbath as this element that is present in everything pointing to the potential for a “Divine Economy,” which can also be associated with that time and space when “the farmer sleeps and the seed mysteriously grows.” It was beautiful how Hall connected this with why we can do the work of just trying to perceive and observe reality, and then relaxing, for reality itself entails a Sabbath that “does the rest” (Sabbath as “relaxing into reality’s unfolding”)—I completely agree (and it’s funny how “rest” means both “all” and “relax”). I like the idea that on the other side of everything is a New Simplicity that takes all this on Sabbath very seriously, which suggests the possibility of a New Commons (a vision of which I associate with Ivan Illich, who I know Hall speaks of in discussing Civium).
Everything on the church question was also really great, and I was struck by the idea that “the virtual is the devil’s heaven”—dang. The points on the city enhancing human potential but at the same time killing intimacy necessarily for realizing that potential, the problem of “scarcity” as a macro-framing, the point that “abundance” is more of a state to flow and “rest” in life versus have a lot of money stored up—all excellent. I appreciated the discussion then on how people’s material condition and economic situation hinder their ability to move into the Divine Economy—that’s big. Yes, I agree that AI will force the question, and I agree training new capacities to judge and “taste” the beautiful are necessary (Thomas Jockin discusses with us how “An Economy of Beauty” is necessary now)—but the problem is indeed a big one. Anyway, thank you both for such an excellent discussion!
You're kind my friend, and this conversation has me reflecting again on Illich and the history of "scarcity" in economics. I really like how you described "abundance" versus "opulence": that was very useful. Hope you are well!
Ahhh! Yes! It took merely 35 minutes in this discussion to reach the point that I have struggled so much lately with: How do I live as a christian man where I am not thinking too much heaven and not enough earth? And of course the answer is love. Not this romantic, idealized version of it, but the practical version of it... the act of applying it. I'm only realizing now that love can work like a subject in school. I'm studying engineering right now, so let's take-for example-love to be like the study of electromagnetism. An electrician may not know philosophically exactly what he is doing every time he connects the red wire to the hot and the two black wires to the ground and the other socket, and I might know exactly what is going on when he does that… Does that mean that I would be a better electrician than the electrician himself? Certainly not! I haven't practiced being an electrician. I haven't put my philosophy into my body. In the same vein I can imagine ways that I can love people and even think about them and have great feelings towards them, (and even pray for them) but until I put my philosophy of love into my body, I haven't loved them rightly because I have loved them in a way that loves heaven too much and loves earth too little. I need to practice being an electrician before I can effectively wire a house. I also need to practice love before I can effectively love my neighbor… myself, the Lord. I can't expect to think about electromagnetism and know how to wire a house, neither can I expect myself to think about love and to know how to love people well.
Yes! Well said. Real love happens when heaven and earth meet, when our deepest spiritual convictions and felt commitments touch down in sustainable, embodied action. So much of what we call "love" is not sustainable because it does not integrate our inner selves to our full selves or ourselves to our circumstances or ourselves to others or ourselves to God or God to our circumstances, etc. Agape, the love of God, is not just a heavenly principle, but a love that touches down, as it did in Christ, a love that orders our loves, so that they may finally become true loves. Thanks for listening and sharing these great thoughts, brother.
This was wonderful! I really appreciated the focus on the Commons, which is something I’m a big fan of and forever indebted to the work of Michel Bauwens regarding, and I love the association of it with the Sacred. That was excellent on the Sabbath as this element that is present in everything pointing to the potential for a “Divine Economy,” which can also be associated with that time and space when “the farmer sleeps and the seed mysteriously grows.” It was beautiful how Hall connected this with why we can do the work of just trying to perceive and observe reality, and then relaxing, for reality itself entails a Sabbath that “does the rest” (Sabbath as “relaxing into reality’s unfolding”)—I completely agree (and it’s funny how “rest” means both “all” and “relax”). I like the idea that on the other side of everything is a New Simplicity that takes all this on Sabbath very seriously, which suggests the possibility of a New Commons (a vision of which I associate with Ivan Illich, who I know Hall speaks of in discussing Civium).
Everything on the church question was also really great, and I was struck by the idea that “the virtual is the devil’s heaven”—dang. The points on the city enhancing human potential but at the same time killing intimacy necessarily for realizing that potential, the problem of “scarcity” as a macro-framing, the point that “abundance” is more of a state to flow and “rest” in life versus have a lot of money stored up—all excellent. I appreciated the discussion then on how people’s material condition and economic situation hinder their ability to move into the Divine Economy—that’s big. Yes, I agree that AI will force the question, and I agree training new capacities to judge and “taste” the beautiful are necessary (Thomas Jockin discusses with us how “An Economy of Beauty” is necessary now)—but the problem is indeed a big one. Anyway, thank you both for such an excellent discussion!
Best comment award. You took the whole thing a level deeper, my friend!
You're kind my friend, and this conversation has me reflecting again on Illich and the history of "scarcity" in economics. I really like how you described "abundance" versus "opulence": that was very useful. Hope you are well!
Ahhh! Yes! It took merely 35 minutes in this discussion to reach the point that I have struggled so much lately with: How do I live as a christian man where I am not thinking too much heaven and not enough earth? And of course the answer is love. Not this romantic, idealized version of it, but the practical version of it... the act of applying it. I'm only realizing now that love can work like a subject in school. I'm studying engineering right now, so let's take-for example-love to be like the study of electromagnetism. An electrician may not know philosophically exactly what he is doing every time he connects the red wire to the hot and the two black wires to the ground and the other socket, and I might know exactly what is going on when he does that… Does that mean that I would be a better electrician than the electrician himself? Certainly not! I haven't practiced being an electrician. I haven't put my philosophy into my body. In the same vein I can imagine ways that I can love people and even think about them and have great feelings towards them, (and even pray for them) but until I put my philosophy of love into my body, I haven't loved them rightly because I have loved them in a way that loves heaven too much and loves earth too little. I need to practice being an electrician before I can effectively wire a house. I also need to practice love before I can effectively love my neighbor… myself, the Lord. I can't expect to think about electromagnetism and know how to wire a house, neither can I expect myself to think about love and to know how to love people well.
Yes! Well said. Real love happens when heaven and earth meet, when our deepest spiritual convictions and felt commitments touch down in sustainable, embodied action. So much of what we call "love" is not sustainable because it does not integrate our inner selves to our full selves or ourselves to our circumstances or ourselves to others or ourselves to God or God to our circumstances, etc. Agape, the love of God, is not just a heavenly principle, but a love that touches down, as it did in Christ, a love that orders our loves, so that they may finally become true loves. Thanks for listening and sharing these great thoughts, brother.