I agree with Huff regarding Jordan Peterson where he observed that he ‘walks up to the line but doesn’t want to cross over.’ And also, that to use the description of ‘myth’ in regard to Jesus is to divert attention away from the reality of the interaction of the relationship of God in the Old Testament and the present of Christ as the new Adam in the New Testament. When Jordan Peterson engages in those endless mental discourses where he equates Christianity with other ‘myths’ or religions, he seems to be distancing himself from engaging at a true level by relegating the question to an intellectual issue. To me, it seems that he is terrified of the enormity of the question and lacks trust in his ability, not only to comprehend but also to even acknowledge the fact of belief. He lacks a trust in God (why would he trust when he isn’t a practising Christian). His wife, I understand, has converted to become a Catholic, but she seems to engage in a less fearful way than he. The question of faith is one that does require an intellectual rigour - I reverted to my Catholic faith by scrutinising at an intellectual level for a long time - testing the truths in the Bible and the doctrines handed to us. But there is a time where one must simply hand it to Christ and say, as St Thomas Aquinas did: …’believe I do, Truth Himself speaks truly, or there’s nothing true.’
Wow. beautiful quote from Aquinas. I agree, Huff is definitely right about him walking up to the line and not crossing over. Peterson is, to some extent, avoiding the truth by relegating the question to an intellectual level, just as you said. There is pride there for sure. But I also appreciate his fear and trepidation about the subject, especially in a cultural moment where fear of God seems a distant memory, even among many Christians. But yes, I agree. Thanks for this.
I have followed Jordan Peterson since his lectures on Genesis and I agree that he has been touched by Christ. He may not even know it but God is using him to spread the Gospel. So it bewilders me when Christians critique him by saying he's not a Christian! So what! Who cares about his personal beliefs? The light of Christ shines through him and he brings his great intellect to bear on the texts, opening them up to a host of people who would otherwise be left in the dark. Let us praise God for this gift. Leave God to work on his hardened heart - as I believe is happening - we already know the Truth.
Agreed. Ironically, he has revived the faith of many Christians and probably had a hand in converting many others! I understand why Christians are frustrating by him coming up to the line and not crossing it. But still, a lot to be grateful for!
I've listened to a lot of JP since 2018, and as a Christian my whole life, was blown away by his insights into these Bible stories I'd always known. He opened up the doors to my understanding how much greater God is by giving us His Word to communicate both reality, but more importantly, the whole story of why we are here. I know we all want him to say he believes in Jesus as his Lord and Savior, but his soul believes in a way he won't say it through his mouth, because he understands the meaning, which terrifies him like he said. It is so enormous of a truth he can hardly stand it. I garner that 99% of people who "accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior" are not terrified by their acceptance. When JP is in his transition to the next realm someday, surely Jesus will be there and JP will embrace the truth. He only misses out on the beauty (Kingdom of God) while he is yet here (as do most).
Beautifully put. Agreed. I actually have a great deal of respect for his fear and trembling, and I believe it's authentic. I also believe there's some pride involved in not coming all the way. But like you said, that's also true of many of us. Lord, bless him.
James Dolezal’s work makes clear that humanity was changed by the incarnation not the other way around (Neither Subtraction, Nor Addition paper). Human nature terminates in a new, higher plane in Jesus Christ. This is an example, par excellence. It certainly involves virtue ethics but transcends them as grace perfects nature. I also find this compelling view in John Behr’s The Mystery of Christ.
Thanks for tackling this Ross. It’s a challenging topic. I think you did a really nice job here in what you wrote and trying to show you need myth and fact as a believer. That said, I don’t rely on the myth side really much at all as a believer. I have awe for my creator and savior but myth to me always comes with a seed of untruth. (It’s a cool story, but not really true. You can glean some wisdom from the myth but it’s not the real deal. ) So I kind of agree with Wes. It’s a similar scenario to works vs faith. We are saved by faith alone (we do need to accept the gift of God’s grace) and not by our works. But true salvation will and should produce good works. There is a self fulfilling prophecy in truly accepting Christ into your life. If you look, behave, live the same as you did before acceptance then some question could be raised to true salvation. Jesus says many will cry Lord! Lord! And He will say He never knew them. Even the demons know of God and shudder…knowledge and acceptance have a big chasm between them. I’m thinking about writing a piece that equates imposter syndrome and Christianity because I think that’s what a lot of this comes down to…some thing true to believe in and truthfully believing in it.
Dude, I'm so glad you're engaging with this! I've listened to a bit of the conversation but haven't gotten into the meat of it yet, so I've mostly just seen clips like the one you shared. This analysis is so helpful. I don't have much to add except to say that this question about what do with myth & story feels more and more like one of *the* questions for us who would follow Jesus in this weird modern moment. At least in our Evangelical context, it seems like we've forgotten along with the culture at large what a story even is.
The "just a moral exemplar" thing is really interesting, especially considering just how morally serious so much of the NT is...especially the Epistles! To me, the language of "moral exemplar" sounds like "copy me", as opposed to Jesus's "follow me" or "learn from me". The former sounds like Machine language, like pressing the sanctification button, while Jesus's words imply process, participation, and cultivation. I wonder if in our urgency to deny the former we've thrown out the later?
Wesley Huff seems awesome and did a pretty awesome thing being on Rogan, but I really do worry about the kind of discrete nihilism and pessimism that can sneak in when the Law is ONLY "a mirror that shows you how dirty you are". I worry about it because I've lived it, and because it turns out that *trying* to follow Jesus is deeply life-giving.
Anyway, thanks for this, and looking forward to chatting again soon.
Man, I'm so glad you feel that way. I mean, I agree. But sometime I wonder if I'm the crazy one. haha. And yes, I would agree that we've probably thrown out the "moral exemplar" language for some good reasons, but in the end, we've thrown the baby with the bathwater. As you said, "follow me" still needs to be central. Also agreed about the danger of the law being "only a mirror." Let's talk soon!
Also, came across this in The Problem of Pain this morning:
"Christianity teaches us that the terrible task has already in some sense been accomplished for us - that a master's hand is holding ours as we attempt to trace the difficult letters and that our script need only be a 'copy', not an original." (pg. 103-104)
I think that very simply captures participation with Christ in a way that the language of "moral exemplar" just totally misses.
Yes! This says it perfectly! Dang. That book is so good. I've been reading it almost every year the last few years, but still forgot about that line. Thanks for sharing.
Excellent! When it comes to substitution, I am very much in favor of making "union with Christ" great again. When I hear people talk about Christ's substitution, it is often reflects a transactional nature which assumes that we are still divided from him. The core of the gospel is not the removal of pain, punishment, shame, guilt, or unsatisfaction. To end with these is to stop short of the full gospel. These things are all embedded within the greater purpose of oneness with Him. I want to make great the notion that substitution, moral influence, Christus victor, and even ransom (I'm not a heretic, I swear!) elements of the atonement all worked together to make us one with Him.
I agree with Huff regarding Jordan Peterson where he observed that he ‘walks up to the line but doesn’t want to cross over.’ And also, that to use the description of ‘myth’ in regard to Jesus is to divert attention away from the reality of the interaction of the relationship of God in the Old Testament and the present of Christ as the new Adam in the New Testament. When Jordan Peterson engages in those endless mental discourses where he equates Christianity with other ‘myths’ or religions, he seems to be distancing himself from engaging at a true level by relegating the question to an intellectual issue. To me, it seems that he is terrified of the enormity of the question and lacks trust in his ability, not only to comprehend but also to even acknowledge the fact of belief. He lacks a trust in God (why would he trust when he isn’t a practising Christian). His wife, I understand, has converted to become a Catholic, but she seems to engage in a less fearful way than he. The question of faith is one that does require an intellectual rigour - I reverted to my Catholic faith by scrutinising at an intellectual level for a long time - testing the truths in the Bible and the doctrines handed to us. But there is a time where one must simply hand it to Christ and say, as St Thomas Aquinas did: …’believe I do, Truth Himself speaks truly, or there’s nothing true.’
Wow. beautiful quote from Aquinas. I agree, Huff is definitely right about him walking up to the line and not crossing over. Peterson is, to some extent, avoiding the truth by relegating the question to an intellectual level, just as you said. There is pride there for sure. But I also appreciate his fear and trepidation about the subject, especially in a cultural moment where fear of God seems a distant memory, even among many Christians. But yes, I agree. Thanks for this.
It’s from Adore Te Devote
Godhead here in hiding, whom I do adore
Masked by these bare shadows, shape and nothing more,
See Lord, at Thy service low lies here a heart,
Lost, all lost in wonder at the God Thou art.
Seeing, touching, tasting, are in Thee deceived,
How says trusty hearing? That shall be believed;
What God’s Son hath told me, take for truth I do;
Truth Himself speaks truly, or there’s nothing true.
On the cross Thy Godhead made no sign to men;
Here Thy very manhood steals from human ken;
Both are my confession, both are my belief,
And I pray the prayer of the dying thief.
I am not like Thomas, wounds I cannot see,
But can plainly call Thee Lord and God as he;
This faith each day deeper be my holding of,
Daily make me harder, hope and dearer love.
Oh thou our reminder of Christ crucified,
Living Bread, the life of us for whom He died,
Lend this life to me then, feed and feast my mind,
There be thou the sweetness man was meant to find.
Jesu whom I look at shrouded here below,
I beseech Thee send me what I long for so,
Some day to gaze on Thee face to face in light,
And be blest for ever with Thy glory’s sight.
I always tear up at this hymn! So I just had to send it to you!
It is the Gerard Manley Hopkins translation.
Truth himself speaks truly, or there's nothing true. So good. Thank you for this.
I have followed Jordan Peterson since his lectures on Genesis and I agree that he has been touched by Christ. He may not even know it but God is using him to spread the Gospel. So it bewilders me when Christians critique him by saying he's not a Christian! So what! Who cares about his personal beliefs? The light of Christ shines through him and he brings his great intellect to bear on the texts, opening them up to a host of people who would otherwise be left in the dark. Let us praise God for this gift. Leave God to work on his hardened heart - as I believe is happening - we already know the Truth.
Agreed. Ironically, he has revived the faith of many Christians and probably had a hand in converting many others! I understand why Christians are frustrating by him coming up to the line and not crossing it. But still, a lot to be grateful for!
I've listened to a lot of JP since 2018, and as a Christian my whole life, was blown away by his insights into these Bible stories I'd always known. He opened up the doors to my understanding how much greater God is by giving us His Word to communicate both reality, but more importantly, the whole story of why we are here. I know we all want him to say he believes in Jesus as his Lord and Savior, but his soul believes in a way he won't say it through his mouth, because he understands the meaning, which terrifies him like he said. It is so enormous of a truth he can hardly stand it. I garner that 99% of people who "accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior" are not terrified by their acceptance. When JP is in his transition to the next realm someday, surely Jesus will be there and JP will embrace the truth. He only misses out on the beauty (Kingdom of God) while he is yet here (as do most).
Beautifully put. Agreed. I actually have a great deal of respect for his fear and trembling, and I believe it's authentic. I also believe there's some pride involved in not coming all the way. But like you said, that's also true of many of us. Lord, bless him.
James Dolezal’s work makes clear that humanity was changed by the incarnation not the other way around (Neither Subtraction, Nor Addition paper). Human nature terminates in a new, higher plane in Jesus Christ. This is an example, par excellence. It certainly involves virtue ethics but transcends them as grace perfects nature. I also find this compelling view in John Behr’s The Mystery of Christ.
Thanks for tackling this Ross. It’s a challenging topic. I think you did a really nice job here in what you wrote and trying to show you need myth and fact as a believer. That said, I don’t rely on the myth side really much at all as a believer. I have awe for my creator and savior but myth to me always comes with a seed of untruth. (It’s a cool story, but not really true. You can glean some wisdom from the myth but it’s not the real deal. ) So I kind of agree with Wes. It’s a similar scenario to works vs faith. We are saved by faith alone (we do need to accept the gift of God’s grace) and not by our works. But true salvation will and should produce good works. There is a self fulfilling prophecy in truly accepting Christ into your life. If you look, behave, live the same as you did before acceptance then some question could be raised to true salvation. Jesus says many will cry Lord! Lord! And He will say He never knew them. Even the demons know of God and shudder…knowledge and acceptance have a big chasm between them. I’m thinking about writing a piece that equates imposter syndrome and Christianity because I think that’s what a lot of this comes down to…some thing true to believe in and truthfully believing in it.
Nailed it—well done!
Thanks Douglas!
Dude, I'm so glad you're engaging with this! I've listened to a bit of the conversation but haven't gotten into the meat of it yet, so I've mostly just seen clips like the one you shared. This analysis is so helpful. I don't have much to add except to say that this question about what do with myth & story feels more and more like one of *the* questions for us who would follow Jesus in this weird modern moment. At least in our Evangelical context, it seems like we've forgotten along with the culture at large what a story even is.
The "just a moral exemplar" thing is really interesting, especially considering just how morally serious so much of the NT is...especially the Epistles! To me, the language of "moral exemplar" sounds like "copy me", as opposed to Jesus's "follow me" or "learn from me". The former sounds like Machine language, like pressing the sanctification button, while Jesus's words imply process, participation, and cultivation. I wonder if in our urgency to deny the former we've thrown out the later?
Wesley Huff seems awesome and did a pretty awesome thing being on Rogan, but I really do worry about the kind of discrete nihilism and pessimism that can sneak in when the Law is ONLY "a mirror that shows you how dirty you are". I worry about it because I've lived it, and because it turns out that *trying* to follow Jesus is deeply life-giving.
Anyway, thanks for this, and looking forward to chatting again soon.
Man, I'm so glad you feel that way. I mean, I agree. But sometime I wonder if I'm the crazy one. haha. And yes, I would agree that we've probably thrown out the "moral exemplar" language for some good reasons, but in the end, we've thrown the baby with the bathwater. As you said, "follow me" still needs to be central. Also agreed about the danger of the law being "only a mirror." Let's talk soon!
Also, came across this in The Problem of Pain this morning:
"Christianity teaches us that the terrible task has already in some sense been accomplished for us - that a master's hand is holding ours as we attempt to trace the difficult letters and that our script need only be a 'copy', not an original." (pg. 103-104)
I think that very simply captures participation with Christ in a way that the language of "moral exemplar" just totally misses.
Yes! This says it perfectly! Dang. That book is so good. I've been reading it almost every year the last few years, but still forgot about that line. Thanks for sharing.
Excellent! When it comes to substitution, I am very much in favor of making "union with Christ" great again. When I hear people talk about Christ's substitution, it is often reflects a transactional nature which assumes that we are still divided from him. The core of the gospel is not the removal of pain, punishment, shame, guilt, or unsatisfaction. To end with these is to stop short of the full gospel. These things are all embedded within the greater purpose of oneness with Him. I want to make great the notion that substitution, moral influence, Christus victor, and even ransom (I'm not a heretic, I swear!) elements of the atonement all worked together to make us one with Him.